Introduction to Concealed Carry in New York

Speaker 5 0:22

What's up, y'all, and welcome to another episode of Behind the Holster, a Concealed Coalition podcast. My name is Jody Picou, and I have got three awesome experts in the concealed carry space, in the legal space. I'm going to introduce them now. We got Mr. Matt Wheeler, we've got Mr. Yates Crawford, and we got Mr. KC Brown. And today's episode is going to be very interesting, is the best way that I could put this because we're talking about the gun-friendly state of New York. And I said that right. The gun-friendly state of New York. Because while you may think in past years you couldn't get a concealed carry permit in New York, we're going to prove you wrong today. So, KC, Matt, Yates, thank you guys for being with us. Uh, today's podcast, guess what? It's sponsored by Concealed Coalition. Concealedcoalition.com. If you're looking for concealed carry training in your state, go to our website, concealedcoalition.com, type in your zip code. It's going to show all the classes that are in your area. Check out our store too. We've got some pretty sick range bags and starter kits uh ready for you. So, KC, thank you for coming on with us today out in the wonderful, beautiful state of New York. And I'm just gonna start this by saying I may or may not have introduced myself as KC Brown a few times simply because of how many reviews you have on our on our website. Good reviews. And I'm like, Yeah, I'm KC, I'm KC. So, first off, KC, this is a simple question. And dude, how do you get so many good reviews?

Speaker 1 2:13

Like, what are you are you paying them? No, um, I've uh I try to make the classes very personal. I use a lot of personal experiences from my own life and give a lot of personal examples to try to bring the realism into how things are gonna play out. And I have fortunately or unfortunately lived an interesting enough life that I have a lot of examples I can draw from, and it seems to create a very personal connection with the students. I I think one of the other things that helps is I hate taking classes, I hate taking long classes. So I try to use a lot of humor in the class to break things up and keep the students engaged and entertained, and generally it seems to work pretty well, and the students seem to leave pretty happy at the end of the day.

The Importance of Personal Connection in Training

Speaker 5 2:59

Yeah, I think that's I think it's great. I think uh I think what a lot of people sometimes tend to forget is how effective humor can be in a class to want raise the engagement, but the comfortability of the student. Like that that's always my go-to, as well as I always sometimes I'm not funny, right? But you always try and think of those those funny moments because it re-engages the student. So, in saying that, you said something interesting. Could you give us a little bit of like your um resume, should I say?

Speaker 1 3:33

My resume as far as being an instructor. Yeah, yeah. I uh through the NRA, I am a chief range safety officer, I am a basic pistol, basic rifle, basic shotgun instructor, I am a home firearm safety instructor, a concealed carry weapons instructor, a personal protection inside the home, personal protection outside the home instructor. Through the USCCA, I am a concealed carry home defense fundamentals instructor, children's firearm safety fundamentals, civilian no, sorry, um, counteracting the mass shooter threat and emergency first aid fundamentals instructor through um the uh advanced law enforcement rapid response training team. I'm a civilian response to active shooter vet instructor. I am a general firearms trainer through Concealed Coalition, and I'm also a master trainer through Concealed Coalition.

Speaker 5 4:26

Man that dude got a resume, that's all I'm gonna say.

Speaker 1 4:30

I've sat through a class or two as long.

Speaker 3 4:34

And one of the cool one of the cool things about your training, and I've I've had the opportunity to hang out with you in a couple of classes and um hang out. We spent some time in Texas together as well. Um, but one of the cool things that you do is there's no preaching to the students of you have to listen to me because I've taken this class, this class, and this class. It's very much a connecting with them on a on a on a deeper level. And instead of again lording it over them, you're one of those few, few instructors that actually creates a connection with your students. Um, and I think honestly, I think that's why you get so many good reviews, is because you legitimately change people's opinions of what a firearms class should have been.

Speaker 1 5:15

And I I love that feedback. Thank you, Matt. I do try very hard, uh, especially with uh a lot of the people I deal with. You know, in New York here, you don't have people often that grew up shooting, grew up handling guns. That's kind of the rare thing. I happen to be one of those people that grew up that way. But one of my biggest tasks is to exactly that kind of change the way people look at firearms ownership, look at what's gonna happen if they had to use a firearm in self-defense and how that's gonna play out. And one of the things I say to people all the time is, you know, this isn't the movie home alone. We don't have the Kevin McAllister syndrome of this is my house, I have to defend it. You know, that could be problematic in a state like ours where maybe there's other options we should consider before moving to that.

Changing Perceptions of Firearm Ownership

Speaker 5 6:02

Yeah, it's uh I mean, anybody listening to this, go go go go check out SiteJabber.com. Go to Sitejabber.com, type in Concealed Coalition, and just do a find for KC Brown, and and you're gonna see a ton of uh reviews there. So uh I we probably all have a question or two for you. The a biggest one for me, I love your training style. I haven't sat through your class, but I love obviously what the reviews speak for themselves, and then what you say, and of course what what Matt has said as well. And I love that. I feel like that was one of our missions in in starting the company was to try to change the outlook on concealed carry training. And I went and sat through some classes. Matt, yeah, we've all sat through now, probably hundreds of different types of classes and instructors. But in the beginning, it's like these classes I went to were scary. I'm I'm in South Louisiana, grew up around firearms, shooting my whole life, hunting, the whole thing, like a firearm is not a scary thing for me. But even me sitting through those classes, it then becomes scary because of the way that the instructor portrays the owning of a firearm, the carrying of a firearm, all the things that go along with it. I don't like that model at all. As a matter of fact, I think it's the complete opposite of what you teach, and it's the complete opposite of what we try and instill in our instructors to not teach the scary method. It's not scary, should not be scary to own a firearm or to carry a firearm. It shouldn't be. But it starts with an instructor because we find the students in the classroom, you you uh in New York 18 hours of training, is that correct? Yes, that's a lot of time to be able to build trust with those students. And as an instructor, to me, that's one of my main goals is by the end of this time that I have with you, I want to earn your trust. And by doing that, it takes connecting with you and not just preaching at you. So seeing your reviews and hearing the models and the way that you train, I my question for you is what do you feel like maybe one or two specific topics that you teach in a class that you feel like you're the most passionate about? You really try and push. And I'll tell you, for me, it's child access prevention. I've got five kids from a 22-year-old son, my youngest daughter turned seven yesterday, to I'm gonna be a grandpa on Friday. That's 41 years old. I'm gonna have a grandchild on Friday. Congratulations. Thank you. Child access prevention to me is very important. It's it's something that it doesn't matter what state I'm in or where I'm at training, I'm going to emphasize the importance of firearm storage in the home. And so, for you, what do you feel like maybe one or two of those topics are for you that you're in the class? That's what you're the most passionate about.

The Role of Voting in Gun Ownership Rights

Speaker 1 9:02

Um, well, first of all, I'm also big on child access prevention, being a father of three myself. In New York here, especially, I feel like one of the most important topics to be passionate about and teach the students is honestly voting. Because we have a large number of gun owners in the state of New York who don't bother to go vote because they think their vote doesn't count. Um, one of our local politicians up here who ran for governor a few years ago told me recently that in the last governor's election, over three million registered gun owners in New York chose not to vote because they didn't feel like their votes counted. Wow. And three million votes would make a huge difference. So I like to remind people of the importance of getting to know your candidates running for office, getting to vote. I always like to remind people of my favorite saying too: if you don't choose to vote, then you really shouldn't have a say in what our elected officials, you know, choose to do because you chose not to be part of the process. That's the truth. And as kind of a person who loves the history of the country, I also like to remind them that our ancestors fought for us to have this right to go vote, that people now are like, well, I have to go to the school and it's going to take me 20 minutes. I don't know if I have the time. Like, this isn't what our founding fathers fought for. And I like to remind them of the importance of voting and doing things like writing their representatives and stuff like that. I tell every class I teach, you know, we we normally have 30 to 40 students. I say, if I can convince half of you to write your representatives and tell them how ridiculous our gun laws are here this week, and then two weeks from now I convince another 20, and two weeks from then I convince 17. If you were our representative, how many weeks in a row would you have to be getting the same letters from the same people before you decided this is something we actually need to, you know, look into, do something about because it matters to the people we represent.

Speaker 5 10:55

I love that. You've got the opportunity right there with people in the room that are there to get their concealed carry certification, but taking the opportunity to educate them and and encourage them on like the rights that what you said people fought for years and died for, right? Like I love the concept that you have there because that in itself is not necessarily have anything to do with putting a gun on your hip, but it's also very, very important to to I what I think is this the concealed carry world, right? Especially if gun owners don't want to vote. Um, I think that's I think that's big, and I love your reference there because I make that reference uh at our church. We have a guy who comes in who's on a walker who's blind and he's probably 75 years old, and he's at church every Sunday. And I look at the other guys, and I'm like, the morning that you wake up and you're like, oh man, I had a long day. I want you to think of someone who's blind and a walker who needs assistance getting out of their car, shows up for church. But you know what? You had a rough night. So I love I love your concept there.

Understanding Legal Pitfalls in Self-Defense

Speaker 1 12:01

That's really cool. Thank you. Um, one of the other things I I do, um, I'm very passionate about is I say to people, you know, we're we're all here because you want to have a gun for personal protection or to protect people you care about, which means you've decided to become a more responsible member of society. You've decided to make more responsible, thought-out decisions. But it's just as important to know when not to pull that gun and when not to pull that trigger as it is to be able to pull the gun and engage someone if you had to. And I always phrase it as if you're talking about personal protecting, protecting the people you care about, you're talking about 360 degrees. And knowing how to draw a gun, fire a gun, etc., is only a small portion of that 360 degrees. And you need to know basic first aid because you know, if you get into an encounter, you could get hurt. You need to know de-escalation, conflict management, situational awareness, all that kind of stuff if you truly want to be able to protect your family and yourself.

Speaker 5 13:05

Yeah. That's good. Uh, Matt, you got anything for K C?

Speaker 3 13:11

Yeah, excuse me. Um, yeah, so I've got a question for you. Um one of the things that we're very intent on explaining to students is the the the pitfalls of the legal system. Um, how when it was initially created, the concept was that a thousand guilty men should go free before one innocent man was uh incarcerated. Obviously, we know that that's not the case, but or in in in today's world, but in most other states, there there are a few states, New York included, that generally having some type of prepaid legal self-defense protection where you have an attorney that'll that's going to show up and help you out, generally that's not accepted. Um in the in the state of New York, generally it's it's looked at as unlawful or illegal to sell or to have. How do you coach your students through preparing for that legal battle um that they know they will face if they're involved in some type of critical incident?

The Need for Comprehensive Training

Speaker 1 14:15

Well, uh, you are correct, Matt. Uh, I believe New York State actually refers to uh liability insurance for self-defense shooting as murder insurance, and it is illegal to have under New York State law. I explained to my students, you know, it will be very expensive if you were involved in a self-defense shooting in the state of New York. Some of the attorneys I have spoken to estimate uh defense for a self-defense shooting would cost about $1.5 million in the state of New York. And the average trial length is two to two and a half years, during which the person is usually incarcerated. I've been told usually 96% or higher are incarcerated for that period of time. I do like to speak about the services like firearms legal protection, you know, that other states have available. I do like to make our students aware that even if they are able to get a policy, they won't be able to currently execute it in the state of New York. So I tell them they need to do their research and at least have the name and phone number of an attorney they would like to use, because, you know, if you were just involved in a self-defense shooting, that's a pretty bad time to start Googling good self-defense attorneys in my area. I I always like to tell them they want to have that name and number stored in their phone just in case. We do actually have one company that offers something similar in the state of New York where you prepay a legal retainer. I do give out information on that company. I I actually uh subscribe to that as well. They are uh a locally based company here, but I try to make them aware, you know, this is something you have to be prepared for. And part of that 360 degrees of protecting yourself means keeping yourself out of lockup and not being incarcerated. And that means doing your research ahead of time and not waiting till after something happens and being proactive instead of reactive.

Speaker 3 16:08

Fantastic. Yeah, it's um I'm I'm glad that there is an option for for those students for sure. I'm not sure how they get around. And what I would like to I'm not sure how they get around the legal side, but I'm I'm really glad that there is an option.

Mindset and Situational Awareness

Speaker 2 16:25

Well, and what I would like to add here is I really do appreciate your focus, KC, on the importance of, again, what the legal system actually looks like, but stressing too that this is not just an issue involving self-defense, involving a gun. You know, there's many weapons of opportunity that someone could use at any given time, right, to defend themselves and their loved ones or someone in their care. And what makes just not a question, but just to speak to our listeners is one one thing about KC and what we strive to do as an organization that makes us unique, that's been highlighted here, is that we're very much focused, just like KC here, on the process of learning. What I feel, KC, you you tell me if you believe I'm on to something here, is what I believe fails training at many levels, right? From concealed permit training to law enforcement training to military style training, is everyone's focused on an outcome. Like, hey, you have this certificate, you're done, or hey, you were able to put all of your bullets inside this man-sized target. Cool, here's your certificate. So the industry as a whole, from civilian to LE to military, is very outcome focused. We're really the only way we can do our students justice is if we're process-focused, meaning this isn't the only consideration here. This isn't where you should stop. Learning is a process, and what I continue to see is most instructors treat it as an outcome-based singular event. And then that also leads to what? A false sense of competence in our students, and that they think, okay, hey, I took this class, I'm good to go for the rest of my life. I don't need to do anything else. Whereas we at Concealed, and I feel like you as well, push, we're staunch advocates for additional training, even if it may be something that we can't offer as an organization or we don't do, or maybe we can't even offer personally. You know, we'll we'll we'll send uh referrals to other instructors if we've got to. So what how are we do you feel like we're on the same wavelength there? Any any additional thoughts, ideas you have on being outcome focused instead of where we should be process focused?

Speaker 1 18:42

I'm very much in agreement. As a matter of fact, during my introduction in the beginning of the first day of class, I tell my students one of the biggest misconceptions they most likely walked into class with was that at the end of the weekend, at the end of the 18-hour class, they would have completed their training. And I tell them, what you will have accomplished at the end of the 18 hours is you will have met New York State's minimum requirements to be considered for a pistol permit. Unlike if you actually want to be proficient with a firearm, if you want to actually be able to protect yourself, protect your family, this should be the beginning of your training, not the end. And I also say to them, if you're ever in a situation where you do have to defend yourself or somebody you care about, you're probably not going to say, I wish I trained less.

Speaker 5 19:31

Yeah, that's very true. When has anybody ever said, Man, I wish I wouldn't have trained that much? And you go look at any anything, right? Whether it's firearms, athletes, um anybody who's in any kind of competitive space, the the words have never been said, Man, I wish I wouldn't have trained that hard. Um to do that.

Speaker 1 19:52

It's kind of like I've never heard anyone in a shootout say, I wish I had less ammo.

Speaker 4 19:58

Yeah.

Creative Self-Defense Tools

Speaker 2 19:59

Well, and and I see gaps. I see gaps at many, many levels. You know, just kind of to throw it in here, I was uh working with a lady this past weekend who is a current law enforcement officer, and we're discussing what she carries on her off duty. And come to find out, the only thing this lady carried on her is she's coming to and from the gym is her water bottle. And I'm thinking, this is crazy. This is crazy to me. Young, attractive woman, right? There's strike one, law enforcement officer, there's strike two, right? You nowhere since you've been in law enforcement have you ever thought that maybe some punk that you've detained and or arrested who might hold a grudge against you might come after you, right? And you need OC. And I said, You you've you've had OC, or for those not familiar, pepper spray training, right? She said, No. We were simply sprayed with it, and we had a little instruction on decon or decontamination, but no instruction on deploy it, how the chemical agent works, nor do they issue it or use it on duty. And like my mind's just blown. And so my point to this is folks, even at all levels, we are seeing these training gaps exist where a gun seems to be the singular option for people, both in law enforcement at times and the everyday gun owner, right? And it's it blows my mind the gaps that I continue to see.

Speaker 5 21:26

I was in a state the other day where I couldn't legally carry. And so, and I just got off a plane and I got in my rental car, and and I was going to a meeting and and I was walking through a downtown area, and I had a use of force tool with me. Can you guess what it was? And it's legal in all 50 states.

Speaker 4 21:52

A flashlight. Hot coffee. Think about it. There you go. I'm like, you know what? Hot coffee is better than Cold water. And it's legal in all 50 states.

Speaker 1 22:06

Just a thought. I love teaching outside the box ideas. I when we talk about in class, the topic that always comes up of, you know, an active shooter. I always teach people that a fire extinguisher is probably one of the most overlooked defensive items you could have. I mean, you imagine what it's like if you spray somebody in the face with a fire extinguisher. That is absolutely going to take them out of a fight for a few minutes and give you an opportunity to do something while they're disabled.

Speaker 5 22:35

Yeah. That is good. We might should build something into the uh into the PowerPoint presentation that is uh that it that is something that that points out all the things like uh a fire extinguisher or you know, like hot coffee, like all these tools that in a situation, I guarantee you, KC, most people are are gonna look at a fire extinguisher and the immediate thought goes, Well, there's not a fire, there's a there's an active shooter, right? Or there's someone with a knife. You don't you don't correlate those two together in your mind. So that would actually be a great training exercise, not just a fire extinguisher, but finding all those little tools that are typically listed or are positioned in certain places uh that could help in a situation like that.

Speaker 2 23:20

And I I think what I love the thought, I love the thought process here because KC, very few homeowners actually have a single fire extinguisher, but I have four myself, and I'm not that concerned about a fire. So I can appreciate your thought process there. And I apologize, Matt. I'll get it back to you.

Navigating New York's Gun Laws

Speaker 3 23:38

All right. I I was just gonna say, I I think a lot of what this comes down to is just simply mindset around us constantly. There are things that we can use um to defend ourselves with, to protect ourselves with, but we aren't in the mindset of looking at an everyday object as though it is something that is uh qualified to be able to protect us. The mindset part comes in, and KC, I'm gonna turn it over to you for a second, um, or or in just a second, the mindset still it's the same with uh situational awareness. You're not there necessarily looking for the bad guy, you're not there looking for the guy with the mask and a chainsaw chasing after you. But what how how does mindset play a role in specifically the state of New York? I think you're a little bit closer to the city than than the upstate. Um, and from my interaction with various classes I've taught in that area, um, versus classes in rural South Carolina, um, the the mindset, the general of the general populace is a little bit different. Um, so how do you coach students through interaction with uh with people specifically?

Speaker 1 24:53

Well, uh you're you're right, Matt. I'm in Westchester County, New York. So I'm approximately 30, 35 miles north of New York City. So it's a very, it's a very interesting area to teach because while I am that close to a major metropolitan area, I live in a very, you know, normal residential neighborhood, and our classes are always a mix of people from different areas of the state. I I do spend a lot of time on situational awareness because what's the best way to not be involved in a scenario, making sure you're situationally aware and you don't put yourself in those positions. It it is difficult though when you talk about differences in rural versus city, because you're looking at many different threats to yourself. I teach people, you know, you need to be aware of what's going on around you at all times, because the best solution is to not be there if something is going wrong. I I do spend a lot of time on the situational awareness, looking at who's around you, what's around you, not putting yourself into a situation that's going to be bad, like uh, especially up here we have a lot of parking garages. And I'm like, you know, where you park in that parking garage is a very important thing. What street you walk down in the city is a very important thing because there are good choices and there are bad choices. And a lot of times the good choice might be a little less convenient, but at the end of the day, it's probably the smarter choice.

Humorous Moments in Training

Speaker 5 26:21

Yeah, KC, I'm gonna I'm gonna give you a second to think about this before you answer. But I want you to think of the funniest, most awkward training moment that you've had with a student in a Concealed Coalition class. All right. I I I have I have one uh at I was in Colorado, 80 people in the classroom. I taught the whole class at the end of the class. Someone on the front row held up a sheet of paper and they wrote your zipper on it. And you know that all when everybody's staring at you for the last four hours, my zipper's been undone. Nobody has said anything until the end of class, and it's always that awkward moment of at that point you can't try and hide that, like, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna zip my zipper up. It's just obvious to the class, and then you look at them and it's like just zip up, and everybody started dying laughing, and it was so funny. But I usually don't get embarrassed, but I will tell you that my face was beat red uh in the class, but it led for great reviews, right? Not about the zipper, but uh for the class because they all got a good laugh out of it. So for you, what do you feel like? Give me a moment that was just funny for you in class.

Speaker 1 27:47

I I have um quite a few. My first answer is gonna be I've been asked some very interesting questions by students. And probably to sum up, the best question I ever got asked was a student raised his hand at the beginning of class and said, Once I get my New York State permit, will it be valid in all 53 states? Oh so we had to have a brief geography lesson. The realm of questions I get asked up here has been very, very interesting. For me, I I think the the funniest moment was when trying to do a demonstration on situational awareness. I tripped over something and almost fell down. Oh, so you weren't situationally aware at the moment. I was, I was about a half inch off from where I thought I was, though. And but you know, use teachable moments. Say, even when you train for this stuff and you practice this, sometimes you misjudge a little bit, right? It happens to all of us.

Speaker 5 28:52

I love it. I love the I love the realization. You can ask Matt and Yates. Uh in my classes, I share a lot of my oops and experiences, and oh crap, I shouldn't have done that. Moments because we are all humans and we all make mistakes. And this is a big thing when it comes to child access prevention. And people say, uh, well, I leave my gun in my in my uh in my nightstand drawer. My kids know better than to touch my gun because I train them that way. And it's funny because it's like, are you an adult? Yes. Have you ever made a mistake? Yes. Have you ever done something you probably shouldn't have done? Yeah, yes. So your expectation is that a child is not gonna make a mistake or do something they shouldn't do. Like that mindset uh to me is crazy. But getting back to new.

Speaker 2 29:46

It's amazing to me how confident parents are that their kids are somehow perfectly well behaved and mannered when they're not there, yet they're crazy the whole time that you are there, right? Somehow there's this different expectation when we leave the room, right?

The Evolution of New York's Gun Laws

Speaker 5 30:02

Yeah, a comedian said one time something about the parents of when the the teachers call them in and like uh are telling them like your kids are are misbehaving, and the parents are like, No, they're perfect kids. He's like, No, they're not perfect kids. And the day that you realize that is the day your kids will start getting better. Um, but as as New York, uh, it was the Brewing decision, right? A few years ago, so as things kind of begin to shift, where New York was actually could actually get a uh a conceal hangout permit in New York. I had heard this, I haven't done a lot of research on it, but I had heard that instead of New York uh on businesses posting signs that said no firearms allowed, in order to legally conceal carry into one of those businesses, they had to have a sign that said firearms allowed.

Speaker 1 30:54

Yes, that that was true. That has since been changed. Uh, the Second Circuit Federal Court ruled that that was unconstitutional about a year and a half or so ago. Okay. But uh for a little over a year, that was the case where uh, as you guys know, I work at a gun range here in Westchester County, and even we had to have a sign-up that said firearms allowed for people to be able to legally bring their firearms into the gun range. But crazy. Governor Hokel, as part of the Concealed Carry Improvement Act, otherwise known as a CCIA, said that all private property was a restricted location unless there was clear signage stating firearms carrying was allowed.

Speaker 5 31:38

Wow. And so now that's changed, and so it's kind of like what the rest of the country does the no firearms allowed sign. Is that is that bound by law? Or like in our our state, it's it's not bound by law. It's if I get caught with a fireman there and the cops come and I don't leave is trespassing. Is it any different for you guys? I believe it is uh enforceable by law in New York State. Okay. Wow. So just abide by the law. And what about New York's non-resident permit?

The Process of Obtaining a Permit

Speaker 1 32:09

That's becoming very interesting. Um New York City is currently issuing non-resident permits in New York. They are one of the few entities that are. I know there's one county upstate that also does it if you meet certain qualifications, but I was actually reading an article last night. Uh, Firearms Policy Coalition has a case that's making some progress on non-residents being able to apply in New York State. And it's kind of an influx thing right now. Uh, some counties will do it if you have a reason. Like where I live, we're on the border of Connecticut. So we have a lot of people who have businesses in New York but live in Connecticut. So they will allow you to apply for a New York permit under that guise. But it looks like all in all, that is changing. And it looks like a big catalyst to that was what happened out in California, where California was basically told they have to issue non-resident permits. Right after that, New York City looked at it and apparently started issuing non-resident permits as well. And we've been seeing a lot of people from New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Connecticut coming and taking our classes with Concealed Coalition who have seemed to have good luck in actually obtaining the non-resident permits through New York City. It's just it's a complicated process. And one of the unfortunate things here in New York is every single county has a different process. And I believe there's 68 counties in New York. So it's it can get confusing. It goes everything from some counties, our standard what we call PPP3, which is a four-page application, which you have to submit in duplicate to counties like Westchester, where I live, where it's approximately a 45-page application process. Wow.

Speaker 5 33:52

Wow. How do you even fill up 45 pages? Yeah. The the non-resident, though, like because California has it now as well. The non-resident, if you apply through New York City, though, it's still good in the entire state. Right. Right.

Speaker 1 34:08

And New York is very interesting. The only permit that is valid statewide in the state of New York is a New York City permit. All the county-issued permits are not valid in New York City. So my Westchester County permit says right on the back of it, not valid in the city of New York.

Speaker 5 34:25

So you got to apply through New York City as well.

Speaker 1 34:28

Correct. If I want to carry New York City, even I have to apply for a New York City non-resident permit.

Speaker 5 34:34

Non-resident? Correct. Because you don't live. So non-resident doesn't apply to people who don't live in the state of New York. It applies to people who live outside of New York City.

Speaker 1 34:43

Right. So even me as a New York State resident would have to apply for the same permit you would, because I don't live in the confines of the five boroughs of New York City.

unknown 34:52

Wow.

Speaker 5 34:54

Y'all are a first for that that I know of. Because California, you can do it. And if you get approved in Riverside County, you're approved in the entire state. You know? Which is which is still weird because in California, too, it's it's every county. So every county abides by the state mandated uh training, which is 16 hours of training. But every county can dictate their live fire qualification. Kind of crazy. But then the permit's good throughout the state. But dude, you gotta a non-resident permit is county and out of state.

Speaker 3 35:29

That's weird. Well, keep in mind they also have to take the exact same prescribed training everywhere. That's what doesn't make sense. Like you're taking the exact same training, but then you have to apply for the the non-residents.

Building an Ideal Concealed Carry Curriculum

Speaker 1 35:41

Yes, and uh a lot of we see a lot of repeat students um simply because they've been told by the city of New York that they took the 18-hour too long ago and they want a updated 18-hour certificate. So now we're starting to see a lot of students reach out and come back and take our class for a second time because now they want to apply for the New York City non-resident permit.

Speaker 5 36:02

So do they have a statute of limitation like statute on you have to take the course? Um, California, for instance, is 90 days. Like if you take a course, your certificate, you have to apply for your permit within 90 days. Does the city of New York have a mandated time frame or is it just kind of whatever they feel?

Speaker 1 36:20

The city of New York right now is been telling people they have to submit their application within six months of the date on their certificate.

Speaker 5 36:27

Okay. That's reasonable. I I mean, I feel like 90 days is rough. I'm not gonna lie. Talk about what I did. I took the new the California non-resident uh training course for 16 hours um four months ago and haven't applied for it. So I had to go pay again yesterday to take it again. I am one of those people.

Speaker 1 36:48

The the real the real difficult thing for a lot of our students, though, is most of the counties in New York take more than six months to process your application from start to finish. Like in uh Westchester County here, you have to make an appointment to drop off your application. They usually are scheduling those appointments 11 months out. And at that, at that appointment, you're gonna give in your application, you're gonna get fingerprinted, and then they're gonna do your background check, and usually about three months after that, they have you go before a judge for an in-person interview. And then, you know, two to four weeks after that, you'll get either approved or denied for your permit. So by the time you go through that process, you're talking, you know, somewhere between a year and a year and a half. So now if you want to apply to New York City, your certificate is well expired, and you know, the students generally then have to take the class over again.

Speaker 5 37:46

Wow. Well, I'm not gonna ask you the bad, but I am gonna ask you the good. If you had to shout out a county, which county would it be?

Speaker 1 37:55

In my area, it seems uh Putnam County is very good, very streamlined with the process. It seems Rockland County is pretty streamlined with the process. And to give credit where credit's due, it seems like both New York City and Westchester County have been actively working on streamlining and making the process better and easier for students. I know there's a few things that you know could probably help. Uh I think in a lot of cases it's just a manpower issue. You know, there's so many people applying, and they only have so many people working in the departments, so they can only process so many things. I'm I'm I don't want to say they're doing anything wrong. I think sometimes it's just supply and demand, you know.

Speaker 5 38:38

And so do y'all have is everything that y'all do through paper applications, or is are any counties actually doing it digitally?

Training Gaps in Law Enforcement

Speaker 1 38:45

New York City does a combination where there's a number of waivers and forms that have to be filled out and then submitted online. Most of the counties are still doing a paper application. I know just uh the beginning this year, NASA is now accepting an online application, although they still have the option for the paper application. And it looks like some of the counties are trying to move towards the digital applications to make things more streamlined.

Speaker 5 39:11

Yeah, I feel like they're all gonna get that way eventually. I mean, we've seen in in states that have moved to an online application process, the processing time is much faster. Because you got to think anything that's written on paper has to be is going to be typed into a computer system. It's just like your medical records. You go to the doctor's office and you fill out all this stuff, and they're gonna take that information and they're gonna punch it into a computer. So by the digital side of it, Louisiana just did it, it sped up the process tremendously. Arizona, I think we applied for our Arizona non-resident permit, and within what two weeks, guys? Yeah, I think we had our uh uh permits in the mail. Under under two weeks, yeah, under two weeks. That digital application process is quick. So I think they eventually they probably will get to it. But one thing that I love is keeping them busy. Keeping them busy is good for all of us.

Speaker 4 40:03

Yes, it is.

Speaker 5 40:05

Yeah. Yates, I know you're thinking of something over there, dude. I know you got some comments on New York.

Speaker 2 40:12

Not New York specifically, but to piggyback off the digital application process, I I too wish that more localities would adopt that. Because here's the reality, right? As much as all of us sitting here would love the day to come where all of these processes, right? No matter where you are in the United States, all these processes, we wish they would disappear. That's just not the reality. So, with going to a digital application process, if anyone out there is listening who is responsible for uh approving permit applications in your state or your locality with the digital process, you still get to run people through the checks and balances, right, that our various officials feel that we must go through, but it's less manual labor and it is a much more streamlined process, as we discussed. So, my thing is this if we can't get rid of the process, if we can't get rid of the checks and balances that some believe we should have, let's at least make this thing efficient. Like there is no world where it should be acceptable for folks to go through a year-long, year and a half long process to protect their family and those that they love. Contrary to what media outlets might have some of us believe, your your typical gun owner is not this villainous person. They're not criminals. They are simply seeing what is happening in the world and around them and their community, and they're concerned about their safety. They're not out to get anybody. They are simply wanting to ensure that they are safe with inside their homes and as they travel. So let's let's push for a more streamlined process because the process isn't going anywhere. So let's make it a little more effective. I can get behind that.

Speaker 5 41:59

Yeah, I think we could all we could all get behind that. And a lot of the online application processes are are a lot simpler. I mean, you can you can simply upload documents uh in today's world a lot easier than putting them in a envelope and uh and mailing them. So uh last question I think I have uh KC, and and and I'm gonna say give me five of these. Okay. Um first off, before that, if you're a state representative, listen, change your state to allow online training. It makes a lot more sense. But KC, if you could build the perfect concealed carry curriculum, and if you have more than five points, you can give me more than five points. If you could build the perfect concealed carry curriculum, what would let's say your top five topics be in there? I'll give you an example for me. I think that a lot of you've got 18 hours in the class, which is a lot more time to spend with a student. In most states, we have three, six, eight, which honestly is not a lot of time when you're talking about educating them on all the topics that that states sometimes mandate us to cover. And so for me, if I'm in a state that doesn't require a live fire qualification, shooting fundamentals, stance, it don't make a whole lot of sense to teach in that moment because the students aren't going to leave there and go to a range and shoot. And even if we are in a state like Louisiana, we're going to shoot 36 rounds as a qualification from six feet, 10 feet, and 15 feet. It's not a shooting course, it's a qualification. I need holes in paper. I need you to not point that gun at anything but that target. That's essentially what the qualification is. I know New York, what is five rounds?

Speaker 1 43:46

Yeah, it's five rounds at four yards.

New York's Live Fire Requirements

Speaker 5 43:49

At four yards. You're not going to teach somebody to be a good shooter, accurate, right? You even working with them on grip, side alignment, you're not going to be able to. Do that with a qualification. And so in my personal opinion, I think shooting is a is it's necessary, but it's like I can't teach them all the things they need to know to in order to do that, which speaks back to you of the the completing the concealed carry certification as is should be the first step in your journey to learning all the other things. So if you had to build a perfect course, what do you feel like your top five topics would be to make sure you talk?

Speaker 1 44:28

Well, I I feel like with 18 hours, we we already up here encompass a lot of this in. I mean, obviously, general firearms information and safety is is in there. I I believe the situational awareness is huge, uh, because again, avoiding a conflict is always better than having a conflict. On that same end, uh conflict conflict resolution, de-escalation, you know, stuff like that, I think, is a very necessary topic, which thankfully we are required to teach in New York. I do believe interaction with law enforcement, especially in an area like New York, unfortunately, you know, there's a lot of people who have a lot of bad opinions about law enforcement and what those interactions are going to be like. Uh, I think teaching people how to appropriately interact with law enforcement, especially while carrying a firearm and how to correctly declare to them carrying a firearm is huge. And for my last one, I I do wish we had it kind of exactly what you were saying, more time with the students to spend on actual physical training with the firearm. I don't know if you're aware of this or not. We are, I believe, the only state in the country that makes it illegal for you to handle a handgun without a pistol permit. So you can't train prior to getting a pistol permit. So it's kind of like telling somebody go out, get a driver's license. Now that you have a driver's license, go pick up your car and learn to drive. I wish we had more time.

Speaker 5 45:58

That per the the pistol permit, is that different than their concealed carry permit?

Speaker 1 46:02

No, the the pistol permit, concealed carry permit, license it all is just phrasing county to county.

Speaker 5 46:08

So, so you're so in the length of time that you talked about earlier, you teach the class, you get the certificate, and so that would be like saying, hey, go shoot, but you gotta wait a year and a half to go shoot. If that's how long it takes for them to get their permit.

Speaker 1 46:25

Right. And at that point, you know, honestly, how much do they remember of the five rounds they shot, and they can't train in the meantime. So I wish, since they can't train with the handgun otherwise, I wish we had more time to spend with them on teaching them at least some basic fundamentals. So, you know, you see people not doing things like putting their thumb behind the slide that's gonna cause an injury, and you know, there's there's a lot of stuff where I wish there was better legalities for how to train people when they didn't have a permit, or if not, give us some room to train people more during the class.

Speaker 5 47:01

Yeah, I love that. I think that the two of the things you said, the situation.

Speaker 4 47:04

Well, that honestly should give you. Go ahead, yes.

Sending Students to New Jersey to Practice

Speaker 2 47:12

I was saying that that really should give you, though, I see where you're going with it, but that that is an opportunity for really to see see them again. And that should help, I would, I would believe, instill that that thought or idea into those students that hey, this this shouldn't be again your end to this. This is your first step. I've always found that incredibly asinine myself. I'll just throw that word out there, because you look at long-term New York State residents, folks who have lived in New York their entire lives, now all of a sudden interested in getting a carry permit, and that is likely as they are stepping onto the range with you to fire those five rounds, that very well could be the very first time they've ever touched a gun.

Speaker 1 48:00

Yes.

Speaker 2 48:01

And I've always had that thought, and that's why I've always been able to sympathize with you New York folks to a bit. When you say you're having specific issues in a New York live fire, hey, we're we're open to see what we can do to help you because it is there's a very high chance that that's the first time those folks are ever handling a gun. You know, it's not like you've got across the country, let's be honest, we see a lot of people who simply have gone their entire lives and they've chosen not to take additional training. Longtime New Yorkers, they've had no other option. And so it's a very different interaction, I'm sure, with these students. Like I said, I think about it a lot, and yeah, it's um, it's it's quite unfortunate. I can't imagine being on the line and being able to one, give limited instruction, only administering five rounds, and to folks who, hey, this poisonous snake, which is how a lot of new gun owners look at guns, it's the first time they've ever held this poisonous snake. You know, to the rest of us, a gun's like a golden retriever, right? It's it's just a tool like a knife or a flashlight or OC or anything else. But we're handing these people a poisonous snake for the very first time, and it and there are instructors who expect people just to take off and be proficient, and that is not a realistic expectation at any level.

Speaker 5 49:17

But what's your process there, KC? If if it sounds like it's a little bit like Illinois, where you gotta have the Ford card in order to basically touch a firearm, right? You can't buy it. And me as an instructor, I'm not certified in Illinois, but even I can't, if I'm going out there to assist with a class legally, I cannot touch a firearm in that state. So if someone comes to your class and they apply for their pistol permit, can you take them into an additional class that um where they can put their hands on a firearm and actually shoot? Or you have to move them into a class that goes over more like instructional stuff?

Speaker 1 50:00

The way New York State law is written, over the age of 21, the only exemption to it being illegal to possess a handgun is during the 18 hours of our 18-hour class until you get a permit, or if you were surrendering a firearm, they they have that exemption. We actually refer a lot of people to go to the state of New Jersey to practice training because in New Jersey you can rent a fire a handgun without a permit. And it's it's unfortunate that that's the option we have. We also do a lot of classes after the class where it's like we we we kind of refer to it in-house as you got your permit, now what? You know, like a basic first steps, like now you have a gun, now you can actually do training. So let's do the training we wish we could have done it in earlier. Yeah, yeah, that's good. I like the I like the New Jersey one.

Dry Fire and At-Home Training Tools

Speaker 3 50:51

To put to put a finer point on it as well, it's really it's really kind of nice that there's other products coming out and and just came out like Mantis's Titan X um training training module that you can get on that platform and you can actually do training that you don't need that permit to have. Um, so it it seems to me that would be kind of the intermediary step between you've taken the class, you shot the five rounds, now you got to wait a year and a half. Don't make it, don't waste the year and a half. Start learning and nailing down the fundamentals with something that's not a firearm.

Speaker 1 51:26

I I agree. And I have a similar product to the mantis. I'm waiting to get my mantis in the mail. I was talking to them two days ago. Awesome. I'm very excited for that because I agree, especially if you know, you're like most people, you're gonna go with Glock 19 and Glock 17 is your first firearm, and there's an exact replica that can do all these things. It's a great training tool. Um, and I I look forward to be able to use the mantis products and showing them to students and pushing them in that direction as well for you know their dry fire and training at home because that's a lot cheaper than going to a range in New Jersey.

Speaker 5 52:03

You know what's funny is that I never thought I would hear what I heard today. Never in my life. And I think it would be a great trivia question of some sort. But and I and I hope this program titles this as a short it titles what you said as a as a short. Just just put it in quotes. We send people to New Jersey for firearm training. Yeah, I never would have thought I heard that in my whole life, and I heard it, I heard it today from the man.

Speaker 3 52:33

I do I do know some awesome instructors in New Jersey, but I've also heard of a lot of less than awesome.

Speaker 5 52:38

Listen, I yeah, we get they got some great instructors, and it's just like I never thought I never thought I and we're we're making progress in this world, KC, because you just said we are that that we're sending people to New Jersey for gun training, and I love it. I love it. Well, uh, probably at our time here. Thank you, KC, for joining us today. New York is uh quite an interesting state. I think that I do think even as difficult as some things are, I can tell you from from our history with this company and and where we started years ago, New York has made great progress um in getting to where we want. Where whereas in the the the the firearm space and and really protecting what matters most, they're moving up um uh in that category. So we we are happy that they're going in the right direction. Other states are going in the wrong direction. We won't name those Colorado. Uh but we are happy with the way New York is headed. So, KC, any last thoughts, guys, as we wrap this up?

Speaker 1 53:52

I just want to say thank you guys for having me today. It was a lot of fun. I I've been looking forward to it, and I'm glad we finally got to sit down and do this.

Closing Thoughts

Speaker 5 54:00

We're gonna we're gonna do it again, and next time I think I'm gonna have like a quiz for you. I'm gonna have a uh we're gonna we're gonna spin the wheel and we're gonna ask random New York questions. It might not even have to do with firearms. I've been one time, my favorite part was Chinatown. I was 16 years old. Back in those days, was like you gotta have the big speakers in your truck. You know what I mean? Like you gotta have the big speakers and the amps. And bro, I looked for those speakers for so long and I found them. They were obviously way too expensive for me. I went to Chinatown, dude. They were like 30 bucks. Yeah, because they were bootleg. I still said what I needed them to say, though, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 54:40

The best part of New York City is going to Greenwich Village late at night, getting pizza at all the late night pizzeria, and just people watching on the streets.

Speaker 5 54:50

I'll bet that is good. Well, if if if we do that, we're going with you, because I don't think any of us can carry a firearm over there right now. So you can be our uh you could be our protection, but you know what I will have? Hot coffee. Hot coffee. That's what I'll have. All right.

Speaker 1 55:08

Go ahead. You got something? Yeah, I was gonna say, and you could carry a fire extinguisher with you, too. It's it's New York City, nobody will find that weird.

unknown 55:15

Yeah.

Speaker 2 55:18

I got you. There's stranger things. KC, the the KC, thanks for being on, man. It's been awesome.

Speaker 5 55:25

Thank you for having me, guys. Isn't it funny? You know, you in New York, you can talk about New York, you can laugh at it. I can laugh about us Cajuns down here in the swamp in Louisiana. Matt can Matt can make fun of South Carolina, and then Yates, you can make fun of Kentucky or Virginia, whichever one you want, because you're I've I've been everywhere lately. I know.

Speaker 4 55:44

I'm I'm a hybrid now.

unknown 55:47

All right.

Speaker 4 55:48

Shiny cash song.

Speaker 1 55:49

Yes.

Speaker 5 55:50

Well, thank y'all for joining the show. If you got any comments or questions uh specifically on New York, throw them into the comments, subscribe, check out our YouTube membership. Uh, this is where we're gonna have exclusive videos, members-only videos. We're gonna get into some deeper stuff, uh, maybe some funnier stuff, maybe some things that are going on in the world that we're not talking about on this channel, but uh check out the membership. We love y'all. Stay safe and stay concealed.