SPEAKER_02 0:01

What's up, y'all? Do we have a topic for you today? You know, I think the most confusing thing that I have heard people say is the word reciprocity. A lot of people don't know what reciprocity even means. I will say the meaning of reciprocity. There are other simplified words that we use in the English language, especially down here in the south, that are not reciprocity. Be honest with you, I never heard the word reciprocity until I got into the gun industry. But here we go. I got my two experts here with me today, Mr. Matt Wheeler and Mr. Yates Crawford. How you guys doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Good, good. Happy to be here. Let's hit some reciprocity. Reciprocal.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Yates, you made it back from Shop Show. You got your steps in.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Man, I tell you what, the the show has gotten so large. I was walking 12 to 15 miles each day. And the crazy thing was, is my goal was not to hit up every single booth there. So I really feel for the folks who who thought they were going to tackle the whole show in a week. Because I I got to take a guess. There's no way they're walking now. I mean, they're probably laid up in a bed somewhere. So and I heard similar numbers from people who were working booths. So I don't know what they were doing. But uh yeah, it's uh it's getting big, is is a good time. Uh did a lot of business, talked to a lot of folks. What we what we talk about, right? Plant planting the seed, right? And and folks may wonder why why do folks yeah, why do folks like y'all go to go to SHAT Show? Well, the reality is you come to one of our classes, we want to be sure that we can introduce you to good quality brands that along with education you receive from us, well, you can get a hold of these folks, whether it's various discount codes or what have you that we offer you folks in class, you can get good quality gear at fair prices that'll get you you know on a good path to being prepared to act in self-defense, heaven forbid you ever have to, or if it's just simply, you know, some resources.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna give you uh I'm gonna give you a piece of uh of uh Jody's wisdom today. And y'all y'all can take this and trademark it if you like to. But a plant won't grow unless you plant a seed. There you go. There's my wisdom for today. That's right. Well, we're gonna talk about reciprocity, what that means, because listen, we've all taught in a lot of classes all over the country, and reciprocity is different than just about every single state that you go to. Some have restrictions on the reciprocity, some don't have restrictions. As I think Utah is reciprocal with all states, uh, and there's very few that are like that. As a matter of fact, Utah, I'd have to look it up. I think Utah might be the only one that uh if basically if you have a permit in that state, then they're reciprocal with that state. So, Matt, I want to go to you. Uh, if if I were a new student and I came into your class and I said, Matt, I've been seeing these ads and read a little bit and looked at some maps with different colors on it that say reciprocity. If I have if I continue this course and I get my concealed carry permit, and you're in South Carolina, so let's go to South Carolina. I'm a South Carolina resident, I give my permit. What does reciprocity mean for me? What would you tell them?

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Yeah, so great question. First off, I love where your head's at. Um, first off, or well, just making sure that you know the laws and know where you can and cannot carry. What that what you're doing right now is legal, allowable by law. Um, so reciprocity, essentially what it is, you have a permit and other states recognize that permit. So, for instance, North Carolina borders South Carolina. Hopefully that's not news to you. Hopefully, uh you understand geography a little bit. But North Carolina borders South Carolina, if you want to go in North Carolina and carry your firearm, you can do that. But you better have your South Carolina permit because if you don't, you're gonna get hemmed up. And vice versa. If you live in North Carolina, you want to come down to South Carolina, visit uh visit the the capital city, um, you're you better have your North Carolina permit if you're gonna be carrying a gun. So respirity is simply other states recognize the validity of my permit and allow me to carry a gun under their jurisdiction of law based on my permit.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Yeah, that's good. A lot of states, I know even um there are some that are permitless carry. It seems like more states are beginning to move in that direction, which I'm gonna be honest with y'all. It's it's I don't know, I guess it's expected, but it's two completely different sides of the coin here. We have a certain group of states who are fighting against every single thing firearm. I'll say Colorado and California, they're like twins. Colorado does everything California does, but Colorado has to be more strict so they can be the better California, whatever it is. But you have certain groups like that that are fighting against even being able to purchase a firearm, and then you have this other group of states who are all going permitless carry is saying, like you can carry without a permit in our state, you don't even have to take a training course. Now, a lot of those states do offer the training course and the permit, but to me, it's just odd that we got two completely different ends of the spectrum, and some of those who are fighting against gun rights actually allow these other ones who are going permittless carry, allow these residents with this state permit to carry in that state. I don't, my personal opinion, I don't think reciprocity has anything to do with training and everything to do with money. That's my two cents. Because if it had to do with training, it would say if you Louisiana is a nine-hour course, Louisiana's probably not a good example. Let's go with somebody um who does not have, we do have reciprocity with, I'll say one state is Minnesota. Minnesota is a uh is one trying to get this up. My computer's running slow.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Jody, while you're pulling that up, Yates, I know we've had conversations at length about this, but since you're passionate about it, would you describe the difference between the typical keyword or hot hot topic word that's thrown around? Constitutional carry, the difference between that and permitless carry, what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

At face value, there really isn't a difference, in my opinion, because I understand what the states mean, but now to the general public, I believe there's a vast difference. So a lot of folks will throw out constitutional carry, but they want to think federal constitution, right? The United States Constitution. But constitutional carry more so applies to their state's constitution. So for me, uh while they are the same, words matter, and it depends really who you're talking to. So for me personally, I've adopted more so this the term permittless carry so that we know we're talking about that state that I may be in at that time to that resident. It's like, hey, you have permittless carry within your state. Now, it could also be true, I could say you have constitutional carry within your state, but you start throwing that word out con that word constitution out there, people apply that as the United States Constitution.

unknown 8:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

So I'm very careful with my with my words, right? Right. It's a Second Amendment in whole, it's an it's an entirety, and that may not actually be the case for you and your state. But yeah, as Jody was pointing out earlier, when we first started to see permittless carry within states, it was only applicable to those state residents. But now as time has moved on, there's been additional verbiage added. And for me, I will be the first to admit it's hard to keep up with. It's very difficult to keep up with. So I always err on the side of caution and say, hey, listen, does your state give you the opportunity to apply for a resident permit? Okay, cool. Go do that. Because then at the end of the day, that leaves very little in question, both from reciprocity agreements and also too from law enforcement interaction. We we can't forget about that. If I'm pulled over by a law enforcement officer and I can hand them a concealed carry permit, well then that's one likely going to speed up that process. I'm likely to get back on the road a little more quickly. Certainly if I do have a firearm on my person andor in the vehicle at that time. But it's also going to set up a really good trust there. It's going to put that officer at ease because as I've uh y'all often hear me joke, is sure, there's a reason you were pulled over. You probably were speeding. Maybe, maybe you ran a red light, whatever the case may be. But at the very least, that officer then knows right then and there that you cannot be someone that that has a felony record. You cannot have any warrants out for your arrest. You you you can't be in any serious um criminal jeopardy at all for you to have at that time a valid permit in your possession. So for me, this conversation branches well beyond just can I carry or not carry within this state? Does this state allow me to carry as a non-resident, you know, concealed, or is it strictly open carry? You know, we could go in the weeds about this for hours. And it's certainly a good conversation to be had. But for me, what what I would hope our listeners take from this is there's just so many advantages to having the permit that refusing to do so means you're kind of looking for justification not to seek training. And I don't think that is wise. At the very least, go to a class, figure out what your local laws are concerning the use of deadly force, and then go from there. Then get out down into the minutiae. Because what we're seeing now, we've got several states, um, I believe Arizona is one of them, who are now making more strict uh requirements for training, because they're finding that a lot of people out here are going out and committing crimes simply because they had a poor experience in a classroom or they had an educator who was not up to snuff, we'll say. And so it's really just makes it harder for us down the road. And so that's that's my big spill on it. Um, get to get a permit in your state of residence if applicable, and then go from there, man.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

That's actually uh Nevada that's doing that. They sent out a thing today or Nevada instructors' feedback on yeah, going through all the stuff because they're apparently arresting a lot of concealed carry permit uh holders. Now, I will say uh and that's a whole nother topic. I I appreciate number one, the state sending out that information and and asking for feedback. That's in my knowledge, the first time a state has done that and reached out to the instructors. Not that they're gonna take what the instructors say and build the curriculum after that. I think in the email they actually said or the document that they are actually currently building out the new curriculum right now. And uh, when that got sent to me and somebody asked me, like, hey, would you want to put your your two cents in? And I'm like, they don't want my two cents because the way the world is going is that online training, I believe, if from a concealed carry standpoint, I'm not talking about it, does not replace putting a firearm in your hand, going to a range and shooting and taking a shooting course. It does not replace that. But if I will argue up and down that an online training is better than an in-person classroom training reading a PowerPoint to someone, and the reason I say that is because if I go to a class, Yates, if I go to your class and you're teaching and I'm I'm tuned into it, the adult learning theory is a whole nother discussion, too. I'm paying attention to you to the best of my ability. Here's the truth. I'm gonna remember maybe 10% of the entire class when I leave. And what I can't do is I can't call you the next day and say, Yates, what did you say about this? Or Yates, what did you say about that? From an online perspective, I can go back and re-watch, I can rewind, I can retake a test, I can do all these continuing educations from one platform. Whereas I can't do that for an in-person instructor. Now, if you said, Oh, well, you're gonna take a shooting course online, that's gonna be the equivalent of putting a firearm in your hand and at least shooting at a paper target, I'd say you're full of it. There's no way because you can't replace that with online training, no doubt. So if Nevada wants anything from me, it's put more of it online, do a hybrid approach. I think that's the best success in states is a hybrid approach where you can take the classroom training online and then go meet an instructor and get through the state qualification.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

Yeah, Jody, Jody, to your point on that, the only way if Nevada is looking to ensure that there's commonality in all of the concealed carry classes across the state, the only way to actually ensure that is to have online training where it's not going to change class to class, instructor to instructor. Because if the state of Nevada wants to make everything standard, then all they have to do is approve each training that comes across and they know that that's exactly what the student is going to get. And then also ensuring that those students have continuing access down the road to that same training to go back and review.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

And states do it. Tennessee did it. We just went through the other day talking to the guy in Tennessee who reviews our course every single year to make sure it is maintained equality. Doesn't mean we have to change it every year, it's just what they do to go through and make sure that the course is what they want. So I absolutely, absolutely love that. I got questioned on that here in Louisiana when we first came out with it. And instructors were all upset, like, oh, you can't do that because students aren't learning the laws this way and they're not learning them this way. And it's like, well, what if we had one resource for them that taught them all the same way? And it's like, oh, yeah, well, we never really thought of that. And so I think that model's great. Nevada, if you're listening, you'll get an email from us later. But Yates, back to your point really quick. When you're talking about getting the permits, the value of it, number one, I will tell you what I feel like is of maximum value that I don't really think gets talked about a whole lot. And that is non-resident permits. And here's why you recently went and got the Utah instructor course. You're a Utah instructor now. You have a Utah non-resident permit. Even though your Virginia can seal carry permit has reciprocity with Utah, I believe that if you're driving in Utah and you get pulled over with a firearm and you're able to show them their state's permit, that you went through their state mandated course and got their state's permit, I think that helps you out. I think that makes you look better in a police officer's eyes when you have their in-state permit. That's just my personal opinion. I don't know that for a fact. But I think that people take pride in their states. And I think you show them a permit that's reciprocal, they're gonna be like, cool, you went through training, you show them their in-state permit. I think no speeding ticket. Police officers, y'all back me up on that. I wouldn't give you a speeding ticket.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

If I I mean it's uh having a permit's not a get out of jail free card. There have been plenty of times in my five years in in law enforcement where I had to hand out a speeding ticket to somebody with a permit.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

That being said, it also not all of us are, you know, some of us are nice cops.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

Well, there's also between Russell and stopside and 080 and a 35. Um, so we're talking fringe traffic enforcements. Most likely you're gonna get uh lighter treatment having a having a permit on you. And one of the reasons behind that is knowing that you have a permit, even if you don't have your firearm on you, just knowing that you have a permit, I know more about you than anybody else that I pull over. Because if I run your driver's license through dispatch and they do the DMV and NYX check, and you don't have any warrants, you don't have any uh a suspended license, I know nothing about you because it's not going to pull up a criminal history report, it's not gonna pull up anything like that. It's simple so having your permit simply tells me you're able to pass a background check. You're you've not been adjudicated mentally unfit. Um, you don't have most likely don't have a crazy streak, and most likely aren't running around committing crimes. Um, so that's for a lot of cops, especially local. Um, I'm not talking highway patrol, but I'm talking um local sheriff's department, local police departments. They're not necessarily always looking for somebody that's doing everything right. They're looking for traffic stops as a way to get into um more significant cases. So you become less interesting, less threatening, and that usually results in uh either a warning or a lighter ticket.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Well, I'm just saying, Jody's really on some wish wishful thinking right there.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Yeah, it's you're muted or your mic's not plugged in. One, but if I was a cop and I lived in a state, let me let me go uh advocate one thing above that, and I was in a state that did not require you to inform me that you had a firearm, of course, unless I asked, if you inform me first and you have your permit, I don't know if I'm giving a ticket. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yeah, and I mean, I don't from my personal experience, most of the time I wasn't most of the time I wasn't, but then again, there is the 80 and a 35 or 80 and 80 through a school zone, and I mean there needs to be a little correction there, but I'd give a ticket for the most part had their permit and no firearm with them.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

I give you a ticket for that.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

See, I I would just ask them so why don't you have your gun? And they look at me like I was crazy because the cop's sitting there asking, Why aren't you carrying a gun? But that's a ticket.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

That's a ticket. The the um the non-resident permits. So this is interesting. If you get to looking at certain states, like you wouldn't even think that some of these states offer non-resident permits. Um recently I went out to North Dakota what a year ago to take their instructor course, and you know, before even realizing it, they offer a non-resident permit, which if you look at North Dakota's reciprocity, I think it's actually the best in the country. Yeah, they accept any permit, which is other states accepting theirs.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Technically, Vermont would be because that's the only state that's true constitutional carry, they don't even issue a permit.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

Yeah, um, but I'm with Yates on the constitutional thing. This is my argument to everybody. If it were constitutional carry, then firearm free zones wouldn't exist.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

I mean, if it were constitutional carry, states wouldn't issue a permit.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Yeah, I'm just saying, if it's you're gonna call it constitutional carry, get rid of gun free zones because gun free.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

If constitutional carry worked, you're saying y'all hear me now.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

There's a hot take. We got him right there. He's he's he he's out of it. Go read go reboot. Go reboot. Um, but reciprocity and non-resident permits. So I think the actual easiest one to get is the Arizona non-resident permit, which gives you reciprocity. Right, here's the thing about reciprocity, it changes all the time. I've seen Arizona non-resident with 35 states, I've seen it with 38 states. You can go to state websites, and even the state websites will be incorrect a lot of the times.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Yeah, in order to pull the data properly, you have to cross-check every single state with every single state. I don't know what 50 times 50 is because I'm wearing my boots because it's cold in my garage and I'm not gonna take my shoes off so I can count higher.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Well, I well, back to what I was saying earlier about reciprocity not being about training and being more about money. If it were about training, which state has the longest and most extensive training in the country? You've trained.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Um, I mean, technically, I guess New York would be the longest, but a five-round qualification at 12 yards 18 hours. It is an 18-hour course for sure.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

California's 16. And in California, county by county, depends on what your live fire qualification is. So if reciprocity was about a level of training, which the only way I can I can justify level of training is by hours in a classroom and live fire. I think a good instructor in a four-hour class will teach you more than a bad instructor in an 18-hour class.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

100%. But then again, if you go train with KC Brown up in uh up in New York, you're gonna get a phenomenal 18 hour class. That's different.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

He's gonna be on one of our next our next uh podcasts here. Oh, that's exciting. But if but if it were about training, every state would accept New York and California.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

I don't know if it's about I don't know if it's about money. I do know that it is. For the most part, a quid per quo. The vast majority of states that recognize most permits have some type of verbiage in their statute that says if you accept ours, we'll accept yours. I don't know if that's the way it should be or not. But then the flip side of that is either doing away with all training or making all of the training across all of the states similar. My biggest question is why does my South Carolina driver's license work in the state of New York? Okay, so let's say grew up rural South Carolina, like state highways, 55 miles an hour, more cows and cars. I go to New York City, but I and I'm allowed to drive. But I was a cop for five years in South Carolina. I have a South Carolina permit. I can't go carry in New York.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Well, let me tell you what's coming. It doesn't make sense to me. Let me tell you what's coming. 50 states. That's where I'm at. That's where I'm at. 50 state. 50 state reciprocity is coming. You heard it here first, folks. It's coming. Here it comes. It's coming. It has to come sooner than later.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

50 states. I got to get a word in edgewise on this. Because I'm back.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Because your mic works.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Shut you two down.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

It works a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Well, it was working before.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Back up just a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

It's too loud. Oh no, I'm gonna get on this thing. All right. So here's the deal, right? Yes, if we had true constitutional carry, the U.S. Constitution, and you could carry with one permit in all 50 states, then yes, it would work like a driver's license. If we truly had constitutional carry, I'm 100% agreement with what the two of you just said. But we're not going to be able to get there without training. Here's the roadmap I see in order to get there, and I don't see compliance amongst all the states. So in order to get there, every state would have to agree on a training requirement. Well, you all know daggone good and well that your California's, your New York's, your Illinois, your uh Maryland's, your DC, right? In DC, they're not going to be happy with a standard being four eight hours, right? They're going to want to see what they require now, which is a 16-hour class, typically with live fire. Okay. Well, your states like Florida are not going to subject their residents to that. I see the issue being from states like that, who are hard-lined pro-Second Amendment, which I do love, but your governors like Governor DeSantis are not going to agree to a 16-hour training requirement for concealed carry. So that's going to shut it down right in its tracks, I believe.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

I got a rebuttal for that. Hang tight right there. I got a rebuttal for that. You have a regular driver's license that allows you to drive a vehicle of a certain weight. Correct? Your normal driver's license. When you go up to driving something bigger, what do you have to do? You got to go to take a class, you got to go take a test in order to get a CDL. Which, when you get a CDL, you are held to a higher standard than your normal driver, right? If you get a ticket, a CDL, or something, it will completely destroy that license. You will no longer be able to drive a truck or vehicle of that weight. Now, I agree with you in that we're not going to get somebody like Governor DeSantis or even here in Louisiana, our governor, to say, hey, we're going to change this for our residents. But I would 100% go take a course that was 18 hours and 100 rounds of live fire to get an enhanced permit that allowed me to carry in all 50 states. Is it what our Second Amendment says? No. I think we're past, I think we're past that. And I don't think we're ever going to get to a point to where our Second Amendment is held up to exactly what it says. And maybe, maybe not exactly what it was meant for when it was written. I don't think we're going to get there. But I do think that we could create a 50-state reciprocity course that went 16 hours, 100 rounds of live fire, 50 rounds, I don't care, or whatever it is, in order to get there. So if you want to stack it like a license to drive a vehicle, even though I do believe in the Second Amendment and I support the Second Amendment, that's a step forward, in my opinion, to be able to carry in all 50 states.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Would you take the course? The problem you're forgetting is our vehicle analogy and our driver's license analogy, while a good one, does not reflect the public's perception generally of firearms. People fear firearms more than they do vehicles, even though more people die in automobile accidents in the US each year than they do from firearm use.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

And to validate that, and to validate that, I actually just pulled the numbers, I muted my microphone, typed it in the search. Every year in the United States, and this is from 2023 data, every year in the United States, fatal vehicle collisions, and these are at-fault collisions, result in approximately 40,900 deaths. In the same year, homicides or shooting deaths. And these are not from concealed carry holders primarily, these are from folks that are committing crimes and committing homicides. So this isn't even the subset. However, instead of 40,900 from vehicles, we're looking at 17,927, which is 17,927 too many. I a hundred percent agree with that. But vehicles are far more dangerous because they result, obviously, because they result in far more deaths than firearms. So why? My my question is I think, I guess my comment, I think that the vehicle analogy is a good analogy, but I think public perception needs to be awakened to the actual data, the actual facts behind the curtain of vehicle deaths result in twice as many. Yet I'm allowed to drive in New York City when I learn to drive at 15 in a back highway in South Carolina. But I can't carry a firearm, even though I've done extensively more training than even a lot of law enforcement.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

Yeah, I don't think we're ever going to get the I mean, the perception is what the perception is, and the things that are going on uh today uh that are on the news are not really helping uh our stance on firearms. I think it's increasing for for certain people, it's increasing the the urgency to go get training and to get a firearm. Number one, the way some of these states are going and laws they're passing, if you don't get it now, you might not be able to get it one day. And I fully believe that in certain states, the way that they're moving in a few short years, you're gonna have to not just jump through hoops but multiple quadruple hoops just to be able to purchase a firearm. And that doesn't have anything to do with I think training. I think there's gonna be tons of loops that they're gonna have to jump through. The the the part on cars, though, the argument people are going to make with the numbers that you shared is that there are way more cars on the road every day, every second, than there are guns out in public being carried. And I I can't disagree with that statement. However, when you cross state lines in a vehicle, when I cross from Louisiana to Mississippi, I am no longer bound by Louisiana law, I'm bound by Mississippi law. Same with a firearm. And so to me, that's where it doesn't really make sense of why can't I? Because yes, I'm still bound by your state laws. Again, though, that's a big, I think, lack of knowledge in the in the gun industry, people who own firearms is the fact that they don't even know the laws when they go into those states. If I'm driving on the interstate, obviously I can see that in Texas the speed limit's gonna be 75, maybe 80. Whereas in Louisiana, obvious it's gonna be 70 on the interstate.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Yeah, you you want you want the numbers, Jody? You want the numbers?

SPEAKER_02 30:43

Give them to me, Yates. Give them to me. Hold on, drum roll.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

All right, so right now it's estimated. Right now it's estimated that there are this is registered vehicles. Hold up, it's gonna be a breakdown. As of 2023, there are 284 million in excess of 284 million registered vehicles in the U.S.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

I was gonna guess 283 now.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

Now, we have supported estimates from varied sources here that put the number of civilian-owned firearms at 390 to 435 million. Now, as we know, that doesn't mean that every person owns a gun, right? Some of some folks have big gun collections. So, yes, while every person that owns a vehicle may not own a gun, there there are more firearms, far more firearms in the U.S. accessible than there are registered vehicles. So, meaning those are roadworthy. Now, I don't know, we can't take into account those of you listening here who refuse to renew your plates. Please do that. All right. Get your tags, get your tags updated, make sure that vehicle's roadworthy, get you some auto insurance. We don't do that here, but man, come on, help us out here, be a responsible citizen. All right, do you do your best.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

To validate, to validate your your um your daddy's. I pulled a different subset uh while Jody was was speaking, and of the not justified not homicides found justifiable, so that would be a legitimate self-defense shooting, but the claimed number of self-defense shootings over a nine-year span from 2014 to 2023 was 15,899. So that's about 17, 1800 a year versus 40,000 deaths in a vehicle. So, I mean, even with the offset of there are far more, it's far more common to own a car than a than carry a firearm, which I 100% agree with. I still don't think I'm not that good at math. I can figure it out, but I still don't think those numbers jive. I still think that vehicles are far more dangerous and far more deadly than carrying a firearm in self-defense.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

Yeah, and I don't disagree with that a hundred percent. My perception of what someone would argue would say that there are a lot more vehicles doing this every day, coming within inches of each other driving, that cause accidents versus the amount of guns that are being carried by people that are coming as close to connecting in some sort of way, whether it be self-defense or not. Um, that would be the argument. But I still think either way that you look at it, um, there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to carry in all 50 states.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Well, your driver's there's no reason we shouldn't be able to figure out there's no reason that we shouldn't be able to have a path to go carry in all 50 states. Now, if there's additional training requirements, I'm all for it. But I think that there should be a path to do that. Um, I probably should have thought about this and pulled the number, but there was a guy several years ago that went out and got every single permit to carry in as many states as he possibly could, and it was upwards of ten to twelve thousand dollars just to carry a fireman self-defense.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

Yeah, I think that um, you know, there are speaking of that, there probably is a way to to run a multi-day course that encompasses most states that offer a non-resident.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Well, I mean, the state of New York and the state of New Jersey both offer non-resident courses. California's problem is for New York, if you want to turn it in, you gotta drive up there. You gotta go handle in person.

SPEAKER_02 34:39

California's is online, which is crazy to me. I would have never thought California would have come out with an online course in order to get a non-resident permit. So they don't accept any other state's permit, but you can go take their course and get their non-resident permit and then carry in their state. I actually have my certificate right over here. We're going to my brother's wedding in September over there, and I'm it'd be nice. I'm actually gonna be able to, after my interview, of course, uh and get my permit, but carry in California, which I've never been able to do. So that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

Uh my Arizona do you have to give up a kidney to do that too?

SPEAKER_02 35:22

Or two, actually.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Give up a kidney or something to do. Oh, both of them gotta go.

SPEAKER_02 35:27

Um yeah, yeah, both of them. Um, but I know Maryland offers a non-resident, Florida's got a really good one. Uh, concealed coalition is coming out with the Arizona one uh really soon. If not, for the Arizona, yeah, it's probably out right now as we speak. If you're if you're watching this, go check it out. Concealedcoalition.com. It's gonna be about a um 35 total minute course, and I'll be honest with you, just going through the Arizona process, I am highly encouraged at the changes that they made and their application process. You can do it all online, it's super simple. I'm not a very smart guy, I don't like following instructions, I don't like directions, but I was able to follow it all and apply for mine. And then I love that they send uh SMS and an email letting you know uh of your approval and that your permit's on the way. A lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Also, anytime there's a status update because I I mailed my fingerprints off physically, and they sent me an email essentially saying, Hey, you better send your fingerprints off, or you're not gonna get your permit. Also, if you already sent them off, ignore this email. Um, but I didn't read that part before I replied and said, Hey, I already sent them off.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

Kudos to Arizona for stepping up and making things a lot easier. But yes, concealed coalition is coming out uh with that course. So, thing is with reciprocity, if you're looking for reciprocity maps, concealed coalition has some on their website, concealedcoalition.com. At the top in the nav bar, there's going to be a reciprocity maps link. And just know reciprocity could change at any point in time. And so when you're looking at Concealed Coalition's map or anyone else's map, this is information that we are getting through our systems that we do our best to update as soon as we get the information. However, sometimes when reciprocity changes, the state doesn't issue that information for days, weeks. I've even seen it go months without letting the public know that the reciprocity has changed. It's not something. How many of you raise your hands have ever heard of a reciprocity change on the news? Yep, that's what I thought. It's not gonna be on the mainstream media letting you know, oh, now you can carry in this state. So or worse, why does it advise you can't can or can't? I've never seen it.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

The can't part is the scary part.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

The camp part new news organizations will say news organizations will typically make a big hoopla right when when another state goes permittless carry. But yeah, I mean, you all are exactly right. That the news does not serve people to give legal updates and unless they are very divisive. It's it's interesting to me, uh, circle back a little bit, is you know, I feel like we've got some good analogies, and many of our listeners tuning in here today will will um uh you know have similar viewpoints as us. But you know, I want to take a moment to speak to folks who who may not have similar viewpoints. And you know, it's interesting is when we look at society, we're very quick to dismiss things that don't apply to us. And I firmly believe that's why gun owners continue to be attacked, is it's easy, right? For people who are not interested in guns, which that's fine, right? That that is your prerogative. I I've always said I'm not here to force this thing on anybody. However, if you're not into it and you don't feel that it's necessary, then it's easy to attack those who do. Whereas if we go back to the vehicle analogy and the right of travel and the ability to obtain a driver's license and all that, if all of a sudden we say, hey, you can't drive anymore, well then what's going to happen? Well, there's gonna be tons of people coming out of the wings to rally against any effort to make it more strict to drive a private passenger vehicle, you know, so because that affects many more folks, and nobody wants to lose the ability to travel freely. So it's just it's just very interesting, right? Again, as a society, we are not concerned often with things that don't affect us. And when you look at our Constitution, you know, that that is a right. And so I would just encourage folks is just to go maybe look at this a little differently, to do some more research on your own about all the data that is out there concerning gun ownerships and real crime. And, you know, hey, maybe you'll come to a different uh position on this thing. You don't have to take it from us. Fact-check yourself. Do that, right? And you might just find that you have a different viewpoint of this thing. Because oftentimes, not only when it comes to firearms, but any other topics, what I continue to see is our legislatures, our media, they don't necessarily provide you the information to form uh a thought or opinion of your own. They oftentimes feed you what they want you to believe. And I and I feel like that is um it's very unfortunate, and I'll just leave it at that. It's very unfortunate. And um, yeah, that's all I got on that.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

That's all I got to say about that. As we wrap up, Matt, you have any closing thoughts for us?

SPEAKER_01 40:55

I got one final thought. So, Jody, you mentioned it earlier in the spirit of adult learning concepts, how does this apply to me, listeners? This is where I need you to perk up and pay attention because this is this is the this the culmination of what all this means for you. So, reciprocity, being able to carry in a state that is not your own. When you are planning a trip, when you are planning on going out of state, look at a map for a heads-up glance of hey, is it probable that I can carry in this state? But don't stop there. When you are planning this trip, you need to find yourself getting the final information, the final say from a.gov website. Chat GPT is a great resource, but it's just a resource. The final ultimate say is going to be a.gov website where you are reading the statute that says you are allowed to carry in the state. If you're not sure, call the state police, call the attorney general's office, call somebody and ask and be confident. Don't take someone else's word for it because at the end of the day, if you find yourself on a jury stand, you can't point at a website and say, Well, they told me I could. The jury, the judge, they're not gonna accept that. You need to take the onus on yourself and have that information confidently in your mind.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

Yeah, I agree. Um, I always tell people if you're gonna step into the concealed carry world or lifestyle, it is exactly that. And it is a lifestyle change. It's not just purchasing a firearm and going to get your conceal carry permit and then being able to legally carry, and then all things are just great. It is a lifestyle change all the way down to the attire that you wear. The last thing we want to do is print while we're carrying, which means showing the or the outline of the firearm through your clothing. That's the last thing you want to do. And some of us we kind of like tight fit and close. But if you're gonna choose the conceal carry, show off the guns. You gotta make sure that that you're that you're these right here. That's why I say I always walk around with two. Um, but it is a lifestyle change, and I think if you are going to conceal carry, part of that lifestyle change is a permit, is having a permit that has reciprocity and as much reciprocity as you can possibly have. What is the saying? I would rather have it and not need it, than not need it, need it and not have it. So anywhere that you go, that's the cool thing about California, just from that going to get that non resident permit. Just the fact that am I gonna need it? Man, I hope not. But but you know how bad I would feel if I was able to carry somewhere and I didn't have my firearm and I needed it to defend my family, and I didn't have. I mean, that would be tough for me to live with, knowing that I had the opportunity, everything was right there for me, and I didn't do it. So if you're not comfortable with firearms, go get training. Literally, less than $100 can get you training that at least educates you enough to be safe with a firearm, gives you your state statutes, prohibited locations, keeps you out of jail. At least do that for yourself. And wrapping up, I wanted to tell you too this. I was scrolling through Facebook the other day, and there was this title that came up on a news article. Man who shot home invaders in self-defense, sentenced to 10 years. That's what it said. That was the title of it. And you know I had to click on it. And I clicked on it. Let me give you the quick version of the story. The homeowner was a felon. The homeowner had a lot of drugs and a lot of cash in his house. And two people broke in trying to steal the drugs and the uh the drugs and cash. And he shot the two who came in to steal the drugs and the cash. And so the title is very discouraging to a law-abiding citizen who owns a firearm. Because if I wouldn't have clicked on that, and I was someone who was a little nervous about it, maybe I didn't have a legal protection that would that would pay my attorney fees and stuff for me. That's like that's why I don't carry a gun. Because even if I shoot somebody who comes in my house, I'm gonna go to jail for 10 years. When no, the dude was a felon, people were breaking in to steal drugs and money.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

Well, the the only reason he went to jail for that was because he was actively committing a crime while the incident occurred. You can't claim self-defense while you are also committing a crime.

SPEAKER_02 46:06

And it listed his charges down inside the article, which none of which had anything to do with shooting the two people who came into his house. Because they wasn't even charged with homicide or attempted to be.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

So he didn't go to jail for shooting people, he went to jail for the stuff he was doing before that happened.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

But the title, that's how they get you. Don't read headlines, folks. Because if you change Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

If if you change the title to unlawful gun owner shoots home invader, well, it just doesn't get the just doesn't get the clicks.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

They're not gonna say that though.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

So that was drug drug deal gone bad, offender gets 10 years. Nobody's gonna click on it.

SPEAKER_02 47:08

Nobody clicks on that. Nobody, nobody, but the the a lot of people they do it for the clicks, but also a lot of people just read headlines and then they move on, and then they want to go talk about the story that they didn't even dig into. So another lesson for today. You see a headline like that or anything that interests you, click on it, read a little bit about it. Uh, but today's podcast is gonna be sponsored by Concealed Coalition. And Concealed Coalition has got trainings in over 40 states online, which is online only training, hybrid training, which means you can take your classroom training online and go meet one of our instructors to complete your live fire qualification, or we have in-person classes, we have non resident programs, we have reciprocity maps, we've got tons of content on our YouTube channel. We've got a legal protection service that you can find on our website. So go check us out. We appreciate you guys' time. Stay safe, stay concealed. Peace out.